compraventahandpan.org (warning)

Warnings of suspect sales.

www.c*mpraventahandpan.org

Postby fernandoalvarez » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:30 am

Para Genonac:

Yo no les estoy ofreciendo vender instrumentos a los fabricantes, veo este asunto como un problema cultural, cual es la vergüenza que debo sentir por comercializar HAND PAN?

Porque están satanizando la comercialización de que planeta me escribes?
Cordial Saludo,

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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby Nic » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:58 am

Fernando (and everyone else),

The community is still small- so people who purchase the handpan can feel a personal connection with the maker.
Idealistically, for a middleman to come in, it spoils this model.
It is something like why people will go out of their way or pay more to have a personal hand-crafted item- because it is 'special'. It is like the difference between a personal custom-made guitar and a cheap mass-produced guitar, or a commissioned artwork and a printed poster, or having a personal chef and going for fast food to eat.
This is the first problem.

The next problem is what is called 'flipping'- buying at a cheaper price and selling for many times more.
This is a very vague and ambiguous line, but if the maker of the instrument is selling it for only $2000, and it is resold for $8000, the middleman is earning much much much more than the maker. This hurts the feelings of a lot of people. To be honest, I, too, feel that it is unfair for the middleman to earn so much more, but that is just my personal opinion.

Because there are so few producers, and not a large scale business like guitars or drums, it becomes easy to manage.
All the makers need to do is to decide not to sell to people they deem suspicious. I do not disagree with this; they can choose their own business plans.
What I don't like is what happens afterwards- the open hostility towards everyone who disagrees with this model.

What really bothers me is that while people Fernando are shot down for buying from the top makers and reselling, no one thinks there is anything wrong with distributors distributing, say, the Bali Steel or Spacedrum. The only difference is that these manufacturers decided they don't mind their products being sold (with a huge markup- it's much more expensive to buy from the shop in Europe). Yes, this is a big difference. But on the other hand, to my understanding, Fernando tried to contact the makers to ask if they want a distributor. I believe that that, on its own, is not a bad thing. Any thoughts on this?

--

Anyway, that aside; so then, what can you (Fernando) or other middlemen do?

There are already a lot of very cheap manufacturers around. If the good makers refuse to let their pans be sold through middlemen, or the community centered around them disapproves of it, then if you really want to "reach out to all the latin americans around the world" or to "help people get hold of handpans", if they're willing to pay less, then you can help to facilitate the distribution of cheap mass manufacturers who don't mind distributors for their handpans. As long as you do NOT pass off your handpans as the products of PANArt, Halo, etc. Of course, you'll also have to understand that communities like this, centered around the best quality (and more expensive and hard to get) products, will still look down on your products, but I believe that as long as you do not misrepresent it or lie or cheat, and say your product is what it is, with good videos of what you are selling (not videos of other products), you are legally and morally clear.

---

Fernando, you ask, why don't the manufacturers just sell at these same prices? Yes, I think they could. But they, and the community here, wants to keep prices low so that everyone can enjoy the steelpan.
To be more precise, enjoy the steelpan legitimately in the way that the community endorses.
So I don't think any of them will be willing to raise the price to match resellers.

---

There is one more problem that I forgot to mention earlier- the email spam. Fernando, I don't know what email spam is considered like for you, but most people I know really hate email spam. You should note that sending out emails like this is a very easy way to make people hate you or your company.

---

These are my thoughts on this issue. Having said all this, I am open to criticism or any other feedback on anything else I've wrote. I stand by what I've said here, and I still believe that as a community, attacking others, however bad they are, is not going to help the situation. I'm not asking anyone to be the "bigger man" or whatever you want to call it. I am just asking that you recognize that a confrontational approach almost never solves the situation; all it does is sends it underground or out of your reach.



p.s.- just a thought- if there are a lot of middlemen, and they compete against each other, then the prices would drop.... right? It's more complicated than that economically, but I'm sure the very high resale now is simply because of the lack of supply and massive demand.
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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby Nic » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:03 am

One more thing I want to say- I am putting it into a different post because I am mainly addressing this at the community (and possibly makers of handpan):

To my understanding, most of the makers are now in the Western English-speaking or European world, especially the most reputable makers. Marketing models rely greatly on emails or personal visits.

I believe this actually leaves out a lot of people in developing countries. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. From the Halo lottery thread, I got the impression that some of the really low priced Halos went to people in countries where they are economically restricted from getting a Halo otherwise.

The way I see it, people like Fernando are an opportunity, not a threat. If you can work out an agreement with them, an agreement that you can morally and idealistically believe in, and one that suits them as well, this is the chance to spread the love of handpan to places that wouldn't get it otherwise; people who don't speak English or European languages; people who don't regularly use the internet; people who are left out by the above model.

I'm not condoning the business model of buying and reselling at a much higher price. However, I think that this is an opportunity to reach out to people that you wouldn't otherwise have the chance to contact.

This community is lovely, but it's small. It's very self-enclosed. Maybe that's why it can be so amazing; but either way, it makes it harder to think about other people out there. I saw on some other thread about how in other countries, hardly anyone talks or even knows of this instrument. I think that's a pity.




...okay I'm open to fire now. Go ahead and shoot.
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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby Nic » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:08 am

Well I said that was my last post, but one more thing just came to mind.

From what I've read on PANArt's website, I believe PANArt decided they didn't want musicians and drummers all over what they considered to be a therapeutic aid for opening one's mind. That's why they don't sell it the same way anymore- you've to write letters describing why you need a Hang.

So we have the most exclusive level- PANArt's Hang.
And then you have the upper tier Handpans and this community.
And then you have the people who make cheap (and sometimes crappy) 'handpans' and people who try to resell Handpans.

I'm sure every level has some animosity towards the next. Imagine Hang forums where they regularly get together to berate all the Handpan makers for copying what's supposed to be a meditative ideal, and making it into a percussion instrument.

Just a thought.
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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby greenoak » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:22 am

Nic,

Not True...

Look at the Top Shelf

PANArt - Swiss (German-ish)
Halo - American (US)
BELLArt- Spain
SPb - Russian

The marketing models that rely on lotteries, emails, and personal visits are actually good. It is refreshing. It is not the capitalistic, get what the market says, model. Why do you reject such a model?

I agree that the "opportunity" you see is totally a smart mode of doing business. BUT this world is NOT that world.

This guy is pond scum - prospering off the nutrients of other people's lives. Smart? perhaps. But it is still an anathema to the human spirit. This community is not the darwinian "survival of the fittest". I do not know how else to explain.

-greenoak :ugeek:
----
As you feed on men and things, so they feed upon you. Be wholesome food to others if you would not be poisoned.

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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby Nic » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:35 am

greenoak wrote:Nic,

Not True...

Look at the Top Shelf

PANArt - Swiss (German-ish)
Halo - American (US)
BELLArt- Spain
SPb - Russian

The marketing models that rely on lotteries, emails, and personal visits are actually good. It is refreshing. It is not the capitalistic, get what the market says, model. Why do you reject such a model?

I agree that the "opportunity" you see is totally a smart mode of doing business. BUT this world is NOT that world.

This guy is pond scum - prospering off the nutrients of other people's lives. Smart? perhaps. But it is still an anathema to the human spirit. This community is not the darwinian "survival of the fittest". I do not know how else to explain.

-greenoak :ugeek:


Greenoak,

SPb doesn't do any marketing of any sort, right? Purely by word of mouth.
As for the other three, they're all very much in the Western world.

If you go slightly further down, and look at the brands that are frequently mentioned here, they're all mostly Western too. Dave's Island, Saraz, Echo, Caisa, Sunpan, Disco Arminico... honestly, without this website and community, it'd be really difficult for anyone to find these makers, especially if you don't speak the same language or are in the same region.

You know all the gatherings posted on this forum? I can't attend a single one of them because none of them are anywhere remotely near South East Asia. I'd have no chance to test out many handpans in person before making any decision. I wouldn't be able to just visit someone in my state or a nearby state to try his/her handpans. There's almost no handpan buskers around here- as far as I know, the only person to busk with a handpan in my country was Yuki with the spacedrum. The only time I've seen a handpan in real life was a subway in Tokyo while I was on vacation. If I wasn't as skilled with the internet as I am, I might actually pay a trusted middleman to help me do the research, find out what is good and what would suit me, and close the deal for me. People locally tend to be really good with this kind of research, but perhaps in a country with lower internet literacy rates, such a middleman would become extremely convenient.

Perhaps this might just be because of the demographics of this forum itself; that a mainly English-speaking forum will mainly talk about Western makers. However, I tried to find makers in Asia and the closest is the Bali Steel Pan- which appears to be fronted by an English-speaking person who happens to be in Bali.
(I'm not connecting Western with English-speaking; these are different demographics. But I think the point still stands.)

At the moment, I would say that there arn't any handpan makers in other parts of the world. It could be because the handpan still hasn't spread into mainstream culture yet (although it appears quite poised to do so; a lot of people I speak to locally have heard of one before, on youtube or something), or because the network of makers is still currently quite focused in the Western world. Either way, with the lack of local handpans in the rest of the world, I would think that many people'll either don't know about it, or have absolutely NO idea how to contact makers to get one.

In the absence of a connection between makers and people in other parts of the world, you find enterprising middlemen who'll jump on this gap. I'd think closing the gap would be a more effective way of stopping middlemen, if that's what you want, rather than attacking every middleman that pops up. Not only that, but you'll find that every time you attack a middleman, you've to bridge the huge cultural divide, both between racial/language differences, as well as between this small community and how most of the world perceives a musical instrument in general. I don't quite see that working.

I do think that the lotteries were a really great idea. I don't reject it. I really like the non-capitalistic models that pop up here. I've seen the good that this community is capable of; I read closely through the Halo lottery report, I was surprised by a number of things. I like how makers cater to their local customers, people who follow them from the start. I like how people can actually talk with the person making your instrument- rather than it just being something you buy off a store. However, these models only cater to those 'in the know'.

Don't worry, I understand what you mean. I -personally- agree with you. But I would rather take a step back, and look at it from a more neutral perspective, rather than just going with only how I feel. There's always the chance of it being a misunderstanding, there's always too much anger and conflict in the world. I don't want to be a part of it. My personal feelings only come in after I think I've more or less understood the situation from both sides far enough.

--
Edit-
By the way, what about this hypothetical situation?
If let's say someone buys from the top makers, and resells it at cost price, plus maybe a $50~100 that he clearly says are "commission fees for handling the hassle of ordering, waiting, etc. from the maker directly", would this still be considered as "pond scum"?
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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby Marnamber » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:49 am

"Soy un hombre de negocios".... Puff!!! Disculpe Usted gran empresario. Arrogante! Arrogante como vos solo!!!! "Se ve que ustedes no tienen ningun tipo de preparacion"..... pfffff ignaro que sos Fernando.

Es simple... ANDATE A HACER NEGOCIOS A OTRO LADO!!!!! Aca a nadie le importa lo que queres hacer o no. No importa lo que tengas para decir, tu sentido de comunidad esta ausente desde el momento en el que decidis hacer una TAN ridicula pagina de internet. Y tu sentido de logica tambien, es una total mentira que "mucha" gente ya te contacto para hacer negocios. Puede llegar a creerlo en caso de Steel Tongue Drums. Pero con handpans o Hanghang, lo dudo demasiado.

Somos la comunidad mas grande relacionada a las esculturas sonoras. Y muchos de las personas que te hablamos somos miembros activos y que recorremos las web desde hace mucho mucho antes que vos tengas noción de lo que son estos instrumentos. Podes justificarte todo lo que quieras. Pero tu forma de querer hacer las cosas y de presentarte en ese sitio pedorrisimo dista mucho del sentido que tenemos aqui presente sobre el mercado de segunda mano. Sos arrogante, pendenciero y materialista. Un idiota en resumen.
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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby michael » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:20 am

Ich glaube es ist ganz gut,
dass ich hier nicht alles verstehe! <3 :shrug:

I think it is quite good
that I don´t understand all here.

a seguir con mas ímpetu en la conquista global de este mercado


conquista global?

This sounds like fighting for worldwide leadership in the handpan market?! :blush:

This sounds not like supporting poor people to get a handpan for a good price.

This sounds like I am playing the cultural card for earning as much money as possible!

I don´t see anybody who will benefits from your business model besides you.

And it is really a shame for the makers!!!!!!!
:dd: :love: Hallo!
ich bin Michael

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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby SteelResonance » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:04 am

First of all i'm quite tired to read all this post about this system and method to make profit with handpans, so i want to thanks all of you who ake the time to try some explanations to people who want to do this, that's necessary and not a pleasure so thanks to all those who take the time and energy for.

I've received the mail too from Fernando and have been hungry too.

To answer to people who looks like envisaging the sell of a handpan like any other commercial good and make profits with,
please consider that if handpan stay since their creations magical instruments with many spirit behind them is directly link to their rarety to my sense.
In effect it's frustrating to don't have the possibility to buy a handpan, but necessary at the beginning in an handpan journey/quest,
all the waiting time should be necessary to understand the spirit around it, the architecture of a pan etc...
If we look at people buying fastly a handpan just after seeing a hang, in many case it cause trouble by buying on ebay a "false" instrument or scam, buying a handpan not adapted to what they want by ignorance...

So couldn't we consider that beeing rare, necessary waiting time and frustration due to it is necessary to achieve a personal reflexion about having a handpan (why do i want one, what does i want, what wll i do with it...).

In a global commercial reflexion, beeing rareis link to the commercial high value, so price increase with rarety.
For one of the first time, rarety, knowledge and art value aren't like to a high price and that's the only way to make sense and put other things that a money value a good.

If you look closer, our community is great, linked, make good thing (i think to CarolW having a pan), permit to people to share and meet together.
I'm quite sure that this comunity couldn't exist if it grows too much, too faster. All society need time to evolve and i don't think our econocimc system and reflexions of actual society could permit to handpan to grow too faster wihtout any damage in relation between players, price etc... If we consider handpans like a usual good to sell, we don't consider the work done by maker and tuner which can't be replace by automatic tools. Only the makers could put all their heart in their creations, so can't we just accept that's it's not something rare and don't link this to the price ?

To the new builder of this forum, that's a good things people begin to make their own (saraz, asachan, In2Nation...) and we see the way they take in a spirit of sharing and link with the community and people who like those instruments. That is the good way to make handpan and put his hearts in. No one of them use commercial method as Fernando do and that's the main fact to say go out to fernando. I hope and thinkthat if our community of players/makers/panless repsect those intruments without buying on of Fernando, he will not sell many handpans and his project can't success.

Fernando, you can't success without people with you, without link without the spirit and feeling we all share on this forum.
The world economic system have try this, selling to make profit any goods possible, but look at it, it doesn't seem to work.
You can stop before to many damage will be done, for handpan and for you because i don't think all the makers will just let you do you business with their work,
some just tell you to stop but other will be quite more hungry with your process and intentions.

I love this forum, the link between all of us, all wat we share, all what i've discover by suscribing here and beginning my handpan adventure. <3 <3
Let's keep this forum being the place to share and to prevent from guy dedicated to business.
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Re: c*mpr*v*nt*h*ndpan.org

Postby Hobo Perdido » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:55 am

How many forum member are we in total??

what happens if we all complain to some kind of authority about this website????

anyone who knows about laws may be able to guide us on this? lets stop Fernando Alvarez
lets get lost between the sounds
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