WARNING PAN CHAMELEON

[Fishstick]

Im not sure if this is the right place to post this but if its not then please move it to the right place for me, thanks.
Im going to copy paste my post from the facebook about working for this brand of handpans so to let you guys know whom you
will be dealing with if you decide to buy this brand of handpans.
______________________________________________________
First of all hello everyone!, im a panplayer from the Baltic states in Estonia Tallinn and i have to get something off of my chest that has been bugging me for quite a while. Last year in the month of October i was working with panchameleon based in Riga Latvia. The maker of these pans is Kiza lang known here as aussiedingo and he offered me a job to come over and sink the shells with him. Exited about the opportunity i canceled all my other job offers as a waiter/barman to go and work for handpans. Kiza Lang offered me a reasonable pay and promised to offer lunch everyday when we we're discussing this on facebook. So i took a bus from Tallinn to Riga and met Kiza in Riga in his workshop. I got there a few days earlier to busk and look around the town, everything was going swell, Riga is a wonderful town to visit, i met a lot of new friends and had a good time before we started working. The first day we started working i found out that there is no lunch and the man who offered me the job was not willing to share his bread... literally, i got yelled at for taking a slice of bread.. this has never happened to me, so it was sort of shocking... so thru out the two weeks i was working with this person from 7am to 10pm working 15h shifts everyday without any days off i was living off of noodle packs which i love but i don't think that qualifies as a lunch from the person who hired you to sink shells with him. Thru out the two weeks i learned and observed the person i was working with and found out that he is not the person i met on the internet, the shells we're pressed with a hydraulic press that pumps water and sinks the shells inside of a huge ball looking thing that has to be closed by quite alot of bolts.if remember correctly then we didn't manage to sink a single shell with this machine and we had alot of breakdowns, he made me feel like this was my fault but it wasnt and on the second note he was bragging about this machine alot and mentioned that he had never sunk a shell by hand which blew my mind. We drove around the town alot and instead of sinking shells he used me as a translator everywhere we went while constantly complaining about how hard it is to make handpans. We didn't manage to get the machine working in two weeks so we were working with the shells he had already sunk and shape notefields into everything this person did seemed very chaotic and rushed to get as much handpans ready as he could. The notefields of the pans he was building we're round rather than oval and almost didn't ring atall and every time i wanted to play a pan he basically said that i wouldn't cause he is tired from this music of handpans hearing it everyday. So as someone who likes to play these instruments i felt like my hand we're handcuffed. After the first week i was really stressed and wanted to go back home but he convinced me to stay until the last day and on this last day an amazing thing happened. Kieren was skyping with a customer and had me play the handpans on the backround for the customer, what he did there is unforgivable. He lied to the customer on skype that in the morning some guy walked into the workshop and was ready to buy 3 handpans from him so if he doesn't buy them then the other person will. But i was with him all this time and there was no guy who walked in the workshop. This was all a big fat lie to get the pans that were barely playable sold to someone who doesn't know much about handpans yet. So i left the worskhop and took a walk around the block since i didn't want to take part in this. When i got back the tuner he had hired to get handpans fine tuned already left and we setteled our business with him. He paid less than a half of what he promised to me for the work done and i went home the next day. This was a drawback in my financial situation and i had to give up my apartment and sleep wherever i could for the next two months in the cold winter months in the Estonia. The reason im writing this is that i want to make sure that no one would get scammed by this wannabe builder and tuner in the future The handpans built there are not playable and he charges 1500 and up to 1800 euros for them. If you need to buy a pan then definetely stay away from this company cause the moto they have on they're webpage "making metal to magic" is more like "making metal to money"

[broussel2]

Sorry for your bad experience. This builder has been around for several years with very unclear results - basically his handpans have always been shown as images rather than sound. I'm sorry to hear that such methods to scam people--and workers--are going on. The young handpan market gathers all sorts of gold diggers, speculators and money grabbers--fortunately they're a minority.

[EliOli]

I've noticed the same thing. Lots of pictures, but no videos on Facebook. There are videos on the Pan Chameleon web site, but they were not very impressive. If what you are saying is true, it's a gamble buying from him even with the video samples. There is no guarantee the handpan you receive will even be of the same quality as the pan in the videos.

[CarolW]

Fishstick - I am so sorry for your bad experience. I hope things go well for you now.

[aussiedingo]

Hello fellow hand pan community members,
I’m very sad to have to write here on this post today.
Making pans really isn’t easy, as other pan makers would tell you. It’s hard work and stressful at times. When you put your whole life into making such a beautiful instrument it’s nice to see people play the music from them, which is why we make these wonderful instruments. It’s all about the music!!!!
I my opinion, sharing negative thoughts in public or in person to any makers or players doesn’t help in any way. This can affect and change many peoples lives, because of Ivar’s experience which we are now told 8 months after the fact.
That down putting really doesn’t help new or old pan players or makers who want to share their music or work. Remember its hard work learning how to play and write songs or make pans. It’s all about the music and sharing good vibes in our world!
Sharing positive vibes and words of encouragement help people grow and that will help bring more wonderful music to the world. Music soothes the soul and helps people grow.
Ivar has stayed on my couch many times and we have shared some good experiences talking about pans and other things in the past.
Ivar wrote to me while he was drunk as he said, on Saturday morning talking about his new pan. I shared words of encouragement saying that’s great I’m happy you have a new pan and got rid of the old one, which wasn’t playable any more.
He had a space drum brand of hand pan that went out of tune many times. He and others wacked it with a hammer making it worse of course, as they do not know how to tune pans yet. Maybe one day he will with practice and guidance.
Ivar showed up drunk on my door step a couple of weeks ago and my band member was there too. We have a photo. He asked me to tune his pan which I replied sorry no as I’ve got no time right now and as it has a very small gu hole which my hand doesn’t really fit into, as my hand is fat. Haha Ivar knows I’ve tried before with my fat hand haha I put the main fundamentals in a bit so at least he can play a bit.
So later on that Saturday morning of the 25th of June I wrote it was good to hear that he had a new pan from Simo, who is a good tuner and long-time steel pan maker. It was good news.
Ivar took this comment of mine in a negative way like I was being sarcastic. I felt that the alcohol he drank and chatting on fb without seeing each other’s facial expressions caused this negative reaction in his mind. Sadly… Which seemed to escalate to that drunken posting. So, yes I’m sad I’m writing on this post as I like Ivar in general and he has an interesting life story.
Ivar and I have seen each other since October last year and chatted online many times. So to get this talk on fb chat about something that happened 8 months ago was a shock as he said nothing to me with in the last 8 months about any of this, even though he stayed on my couch since October, last year..
In October last year Ivar knew that we were going to start to try making shells with our machine. He asked do I need help and I said yes. I estimated a rough fair amount of payment and i offered my couch and a daily lunch.
Ivar stayed on my couch free of course and he was given lunches daily and a fair payment of 250 euro for 6 days in which only two days were a bit longer due to broken machines. The work finished earlier due to the broken machines. This is a good wage here in the Baltics and so once all was done he was paid. If Ivar had a job which paid more than my offer then why would he leave it?! I didn’t understand that part from him..
At the time of testing the machine to make shells, the rented Karcher machine broke many times and so over some days the guys kept coming to fix it. This caused delays making any shells. Of course I was very stressed out as I had put my whole life into trying to make pans.
Making pans in a country that I’m not from and I do not speak the languages of Latvian or Russian and in a place that is very hard to get parts is a big struggle!! Many older people in Latvia are in the metal industry and are Soviet thinking of course, as it’s an ex-soviet union state here.. 99% of metal workers here do not speak English or Latvian but only Russian. So when I’m trying to explain things or get things fixed it’s a challenge let’s say ..but.. I’m here for personal reasons that’s how I ended up here..
So in the 6 days Ivar was here last Oct we had many frustrating work moments while trying to make pans due to broken machines and time limits. Stress affects us all in different ways and I have put my whole life into making pans. But Ivar was fed a daily lunch and had a place to sleep on my couch and he was paid fairly for his time.
We only had 2 long days working and a lot of that time was waiting for machines to be fixed by those guys as they came from another town 100km from here. So in between there wasn’t much work going on as the machines were broken but there were two long days.
Ivar ate noodles all day, yes haha as he is a growing boy, but his lunch was provided of course on top of his noodles.. He has a fast metabolism I guessed...
I have in the past hand sunk shells by hammer and recently by rammer but I was taught how to form shells in Germany by this machine. Water smooths things better and in a more natural way as nature has taught us over many centuries! Seemed natural to me to form this way too! There are now a few makers using this method.
I have had customers come from many countries to buy pans. If they choose ones they like then great we worked out a fair price. Prices vary due to amount of tones and the overall sound quality of the pans once they are finished. We only price a pan once its finished as then we play them and share our opinions. In general we only offer a price from 1000-1450 euro plus packaging and sending. If some pans have a higher quality or more tones we have offered them for about 1600 euro. Many times we have offered free sending with in Europe and the UK. Also we have offered people discounts to help people start playing. We do this sometimes because making pans for us is about the music.
Ivar played on all the pans during work time at every chance he got.. haha He too reminded us it’s about the music Hearing someone play all the time while trying to concentrate on work is difficult. The tuning devices react to notes being played by him, while we are trying to tune. So if he is playing while we are tuning pans then that effects the tuners. And forming shells is metal work not making music as I tried to explain to Ivar. But his young enthusiasm was a nice reminder that it’s about the music!
One older experienced pan and steel pan maker in Europe once told me you never stop learning when working with metal.. This is true I’m still learning and there is soo much to learn.. Making pans is a big learning curve in life and in many ways. I feel blessed to be able to have the skills to tune my own pan now which is why I started to learn this in the first place, but I fell into making pans.
I’m thankful for all those around that have helped in any small way like Ivar and a big thanks to Simo who is a good tuner and we have helped each other. He taught me new ways and I hope I have taught him something also.
We would like to share the Pan Chameleon youtube channel, as we read on posts some people haven’t heard our pans yet. https://www.youtube.com/user/aussiedingocs
I had asked Ivar to come and speak with me in person as writing to me drunk on fb chat and misunderstanding things obviously has not helped either of us in any way. Posting drunk like this in public doesn’t help him nor myself. I’m not sure why he didn’t just speak to me in person at the time, 8 months ago or on the other occasions we met or spoke online..
I would like to speak with you Ivar in person and I have asked to resolve this in person many times. I would like this post kindly removed please as it's a personal situation that has spilt over into the community.. I hope this is all resolved peacefully.
Kind regards,
Kieren Langdon.
Have a musical day all!

[Joyfulnoise]

An interesting and difficult situation. I don't see the harm in this being aired provided both parties have an opportunity to provide their side of the issue.

I have listened to the pan recordings on the link and while they do sound playable there is certainly some improvement to be made. Not a criticism, just an observation that part of the reason for this area is to ensure pans are being sold for an amount that matches their quality so the new and uneducated listener is not mislead. I would say that 1400 Euros is too high for the current level of development. KOAN and Aciel sell pans in this price range with tuning very highly developed.

I don't know if admin will agree but I feel concerns about business practice have a place here.

I sincerely hope you both are able to resolve your issue and I look forward to hearing more development in the tuning of the pans.

[Afinfas]

An interesting and difficult situation. I don't see the harm in this being aired provided both parties have an opportunity to provide their side of the issue.

I have listened to the pan recordings on the link and while they do sound playable there is certainly some improvement to be made. Not a criticism, just an observation that part of the reason for this area is to ensure pans are being sold for an amount that matches their quality so the new and uneducated listener is not mislead. I would say that 1400 Euros is too high for the current level of development. KOAN and Aciel sell pans in this price range with tuning very highly developed.

I don't know if admin will agree but I feel concerns about business practice have a place here.

I sincerely hope you both are able to resolve your issue and I look forward to hearing more development in the tuning of the pans.

+1

[atonal sonographik]

An interesting and difficult situation. I don't see the harm in this being aired provided both parties have an opportunity to provide their side of the issue.

I have listened to the pan recordings on the link and while they do sound playable there is certainly some improvement to be made. Not a criticism, just an observation that part of the reason for this area is to ensure pans are being sold for an amount that matches their quality so the new and uneducated listener is not mislead. I would say that 1400 Euros is too high for the current level of development. KOAN and Aciel sell pans in this price range with tuning very highly developed.

I don't know if admin will agree but I feel concerns about business practice have a place here.

I sincerely hope you both are able to resolve your issue and I look forward to hearing more development in the tuning of the pans.

+1

+1,
specially in the price comment, i'd say this level of tunning its being sold at arround 600-800 euros,
1600 is already an european top handpan price

[aussiedingo]

Here is a recent new pan sold for 1000 euro and he bought a few... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3zlAI4t7c

[atonal sonographik]

Here is a recent new pan sold for 1000 euro and he bought a few... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3zlAI4t7c

that doesnt sound very good, imo

my aciel cost me that much and it sounds a lot better